[Blabber] Intertubes

Jon Botelho jon at jbotelho.com
Sun Nov 13 14:58:38 EST 2011


The quality of internet service does vary by building, but Time Warner in
particular seems to have widespread capacity issues in that area. If you
ever run a trace of someone's connection during peak hours, you can see the
traffic getting bottle-necked somewhere on Time Warner's network, beyond
the modem, but before it hits the public internet.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:00 PM, <
blabber-request at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: New version of Prusa Mendel (Chris Stratton)
>   2. Re: Intertubes (Peter Shenkin)
>   3. Eyeo meetup at HackManhattan? (Andrew Dayton)
>   4. Re: Eyeo meetup at HackManhattan? (Jon Pellant)
>   5. Re: Eyeo meetup at HackManhattan? (Daniel Packer)
>   6. infrastructure choices (Daniel Packer)
>   7. Re: Intertubes (Kenneth Gutierrez)
>   8. Re: infrastructure choices (Chris Stratton)
>   9. Re: infrastructure choices (Peter Shenkin)
>  10. Re: infrastructure choices (Guan Yang)
>  11. Re: Intertubes (Guan Yang)
>  12. Re: Eyeo meetup at HackManhattan? (Kenneth Gutierrez)
>  13. Re: Intertubes (Kenneth Gutierrez)
>  14. Re: infrastructure choices (Daniel Packer)
>  15. Re: infrastructure choices (Joe Sadusk)
>  16. Re: infrastructure choices (Ceren Ercen)
>  17. Re: infrastructure choices (Daniel Packer)
>  18. Re: infrastructure choices (Jon Pellant)
>  19. Re: infrastructure choices (Daniel Packer)
>  20. Re: infrastructure choices (Daniel Packer)
>  21. Re: infrastructure choices (Justin Levinson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:21:04 -0500
> From: Chris Stratton <cs07024 at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] New version of Prusa Mendel
> Message-ID:
>        <CAM4pFh9kK5r3Sq071zpicca47228GJh3V3XS8NBR3mY7t2BWFQ at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 10:25 PM, Joe Sadusk <joe at sadusk.com> wrote:
> > I did it with a plain old hand hacksaw. ?It took a couple hours but
> > really it wasn't so bad.
>
> Something I've been meaning to recommend is a quality hacksaw frame -
> one where you can get the blade under more tension helps a lot.  That,
> a decent blade of appropriate tooth pitch, and a vise to hold the work
> in make a lot of difference.  A triangular file might be useful to
> clean up the threads - also, have a nut on the rod that you can back
> off over the newly cut portion.
>
> Home depot no longer seems to carry an appropriate hacksaw frame,
> though I'm pretty sure that's where mine came from 10 years ago.  I
> can bring it in sometime if people want to have a go, though I don't
> think there's any workbench in the space geometrically appropriate to
> hand sawing things at - something that might also be worth thinking
> about (or keep an eye out for a heavy old chair that can do such duty)
>
> Chris
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:19:23 -0500
> From: Peter Shenkin <shenkin at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] Intertubes
> Message-ID:
>        <CAAsqebEA5+seiQ9p7g9kvWnT3iirQCerWdFuMFcqmPYd50afgQ at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Jon Botelho <jon at jbotelho.com> wrote:
>
> > I know I never talk on this list, but I gotta say, Time Warner is
> terrible
> > in that part of town. We have Clear/Sprint 4G, Verizon DSL, and Time
> Warner
> > (50Mb) at work (20th/Broadway), and Time Warner is the only one that
> craps
> > out on a daily basis. Checkout one of the local DSL companies like
> Voxline
> > if you're up for trading the bandwidth for reliability and good latency
> > (they offer higher bandwidth plans than Verizon).
> >
> >
> Are you sure it's "that part of town"? My impression with cable is that
> it's building by building. Lots of people in my building (in Hell's
> Kitchen) have iffy TW service, but people in surrounding buildings have no
> problem.
>
> -P.
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:57:50 -0500
> From: Andrew Dayton <andy at notioncollective.com>
> To: Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> Subject: [Blabber] Eyeo meetup at HackManhattan?
> Message-ID:
>        <5EFCC968-BF38-4DC7-99D2-8E0F14B30882 at notioncollective.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello Manhattan Hackers,
>
> I'm not sure if any of you made it to the Eyeo Festival last June, but
> it's a (sort of) new conference focused on art, design & code (for those
> curious: http://eyeofestival.com/). I wasn't at all involved in
> organizing the conference, but I've been interested in helping put together
> an NYC Eyeo meetup ever since it happened. I briefly mentioned this a while
> ago when the Manhattan hacker space idea was first introduced on NYC
> Resistor, but haven't been able to give much attention to the idea since
> then.
>
> My question is: is there any interest amongst the current members in
> hosting such an event? I haven't had a chance to check out the space yet,
> but I don know it's above a bar which could be helpful :). Seems like it
> could be a good way to build interest in Hack Manhattan, and to find a
> space to host this meetup.
>
> I am not currently a member of Hack Manhattan, and live/work in Brooklyn
> so it's not quite a good fit for me. But I definitely would like to make
> this meetup happen if there is interest.
>
> Thanks!
> Andy
>
> ---
>
> Andy Dayton
> http://andydayton.com
> @andyinabox
>
> Affiliations:
> @notion_nyc
> @poptech
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:17:08 -0500
> From: Jon Pellant <jpellant at gmail.com>
> To: Hack Manhattan! <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] Eyeo meetup at HackManhattan?
> Message-ID: <2B80B9BC-FE9B-433F-AFC2-0AF0EC695A50 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hey Andy... Count me in!
>
> Jon,
> w1jp
> @marmageek
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2011, at 14:57, Andrew Dayton <andy at notioncollective.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello Manhattan Hackers,
> >
> > I'm not sure if any of you made it to the Eyeo Festival last June, but
> it's a (sort of) new conference focused on art, design & code (for those
> curious: http://eyeofestival.com/). I wasn't at all involved in
> organizing the conference, but I've been interested in helping put together
> an NYC Eyeo meetup ever since it happened. I briefly mentioned this a while
> ago when the Manhattan hacker space idea was first introduced on NYC
> Resistor, but haven't been able to give much attention to the idea since
> then.
> >
> > My question is: is there any interest amongst the current members in
> hosting such an event? I haven't had a chance to check out the space yet,
> but I don know it's above a bar which could be helpful :). Seems like it
> could be a good way to build interest in Hack Manhattan, and to find a
> space to host this meetup.
> >
> > I am not currently a member of Hack Manhattan, and live/work in Brooklyn
> so it's not quite a good fit for me. But I definitely would like to make
> this meetup happen if there is interest.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Andy
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Andy Dayton
> > http://andydayton.com
> > @andyinabox
> >
> > Affiliations:
> > @notion_nyc
> > @poptech
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:23:59 -0500
> From: Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] Eyeo meetup at HackManhattan?
> Message-ID:
>        <CAFFbUj4bWmjBMbm1uScqZTWURxnME2aziqPy-dLzoTSyZEAt1Q at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> My schedule is wacky but I'm interested in convergence-y type stuff.
> Let us know what you're thinking in terms of schedule. We don't really
> have a calendar yet, but we've just started getting keys to members,
> so things should pick up.
>
> DP
> @daniel_packer
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Jon Pellant <jpellant at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hey Andy... Count me in!
> > Jon,
> > w1jp
> > @marmageek
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2011, at 14:57, Andrew Dayton <andy at notioncollective.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Manhattan Hackers,
> > I'm not sure if any of you made it to the Eyeo Festival last June, but
> it's
> > a (sort of) new conference focused on art, design & code (for those
> > curious:?http://eyeofestival.com/). I wasn't at all involved in
> organizing
> > the conference, but I've been interested in helping put together an NYC
> Eyeo
> > meetup ever since it happened. I briefly mentioned this a while ago when
> the
> > Manhattan hacker space idea was first introduced on NYC Resistor, but
> > haven't been able to give much attention to the idea since then.
> > My question is: is there any interest amongst the current members in
> hosting
> > such an event? I haven't had a chance to check out the space yet, but I
> don
> > know it's above a bar which could be helpful :). Seems like it could be a
> > good way to build interest in Hack Manhattan, and to find a space to host
> > this meetup.
> > I am not currently a member of Hack Manhattan, and live/work in Brooklyn
> so
> > it's not quite a good fit for me. But I definitely would like to make
> this
> > meetup happen if there is interest.
> > Thanks!
> > Andy
> > ---
> > Andy Dayton
> > http://andydayton.com
> > @andyinabox
> >
> > Affiliations:
> > @notion_nyc
> > @poptech
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:46:40 -0500
> From: Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAFFbUj738BhbGxj7TNk2ThMkSsEzRXbSypu-Gb0nu2t3JnyHiA at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hey guys,
>
> It's time to upgrade some of our infrastructure and I'm juggling a few
> options. Our current needs are a mailing list (like this one), a
> website/blog, a wiki (we already have that), and email for
> hackmanhattan.com. A few thoughts on google apps/groups vs
> mailman/linux vps.
>
> * There is no convenient way to archive a google group, at all. if the
> group is canceled, if the service shuts down, you have to use scraped
> html files, if you're lucky. This is obviously not a problem with
> mailman. If the mailman server goes down, all the settings, data
> files, mailbox files, are all available in the backup.
>
> * In addition, there is no convenient automatic way to get an up to
> date list of your subscribers, so, with google groups you're kind of
> stuck if your list goes down. Again, with mailman, setting up a backup
> list would be a matter of restoring the backup files and firing off an
> email (an hour's work maybe?)
>
> * Google apps free edition has a limit of 10 users, so it's not useful
> for vanity email addresses, though it'd be fine for a few special
> addresses (board@, info@, etc.) Again, running our own server
> obviously imposes no such limitation. I do think offering vanity
> emails to all dues paying members would be a nice thing.
>
> * In terms of reliability, I've had many more hours of google apps/gmail
> difficulties than I've ever had with mailman/linux hosted mail server.
>
> * The main benefit of google groups appears to be the web-based
> interface for those who aren't comfortable with listservs. I can't
> really see any other advantage. The reliability is not a strong
> argument, nor is the security/robustness, in my opinion.
>
> * There is something to be said for owning your own data. First, nobody
> can deprive you of it, or use it in any way you don't allow. Second,
> you have access to it 24/7 right on your own system. Would we want to
> access our mailing list, website, email, or other subsystems through
> means we can't predict right now? We're hackers so I'd think so. Google
> is a huge company that isn't going away any time soon, but it is also a
> point of pride to manage my own data an IT guy/hacker.
>
> * Forums are great, but not for small communities, so no, I don't see
> that as a viable alternative to a mailing list. Can you say ghost town?
>
> Accepting mail at hackmanhattan.com, setting up wordpress, and moving
> the mailing list from @danielpacker.org to @hackmanhattan.com is
> about one night's worth of work, and is not any easier for me to do on
> google
> apps than it is on our linux VPS.
>
> Thoughts? In the meantime I've set up google apps free edition, but
> it's already annoying me. I have to admit that I'm especially interested in
> responses from those who've expressed interest in being co-sysadmins for
> our linux stuff. On the other hand, if web accessibility is a big issue,
> I'm
> interested in that too. My bias is towards full control of our data, but
> not
> if it deprives us of needed functionality.
>
> DP
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:12:02 -0500
> From: Kenneth Gutierrez <kennypg at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] Intertubes
> Message-ID:
>        <CAEKHNHbZW_=6Nam8DcRNGN0-47=s5P3F0LYSFnQRaCY+ATvEqg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I don't think the building is wired for cable, being non-residential.
> Bunga's Den has a satellite dish.
>
> Last I heard, however, FIOS was supposed to be coming to 14th Street any
> day now.
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Peter Shenkin <shenkin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Jon Botelho <jon at jbotelho.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I know I never talk on this list, but I gotta say, Time Warner is
> >> terrible in that part of town. We have Clear/Sprint 4G, Verizon DSL, and
> >> Time Warner (50Mb) at work (20th/Broadway), and Time Warner is the only
> one
> >> that craps out on a daily basis. Checkout one of the local DSL companies
> >> like Voxline if you're up for trading the bandwidth for reliability and
> >> good latency (they offer higher bandwidth plans than Verizon).
> >>
> >>
> > Are you sure it's "that part of town"? My impression with cable is that
> > it's building by building. Lots of people in my building (in Hell's
> > Kitchen) have iffy TW service, but people in surrounding buildings have
> no
> > problem.
> >
> > -P.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:18:00 -0500
> From: Chris Stratton <cs07024 at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAM4pFh_CFz9R3+Sgf3C_pUxQ5h3i-kUbhZ8pJbE7wT5fk6jJ1A at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> wrote:
>
> > * There is no convenient way to archive a google group, at all. if the
> > group is canceled, if the service shuts down, you have to use scraped
> > html files, if you're lucky.
>
> I think one can subscribe via email to a google group, so couldn't one
> be archived by subscribing a mail address (either on one's own server,
> or a webmail for which there is a download tool as there are for
> most)?
>
> In my opinion, the mailman archive interface is primitive and inferior
> to the google groups one for casual web reading, but conversely its
> streamlined enough (just give me the entire month!) to be far superior
> for in-depth reading where google's need to click every post or few
> bogs down.  Perhaps there's a more friendly front end for mailman's
> archives out there?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:52:39 -0500
> From: Peter Shenkin <shenkin at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAAsqebFwrBS1MQJzHVPL4mXkvEXYhU4448tcMkmrayjaOaCuCQ at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Re. Goofle Apps:
>
> "If you are a U.S. nonprofit organization of ... under 3,000 users, you can
> apply for the free Google Apps for Education through the Google for
> Nonprofits site."   See http://www.google.com/nonprofits/.
>
> Of course, once we reach 3000 users we would have to pay. But we can
> reconsider at that time. ;-)
>
> I think we'd be crazy (not to mention suckers for punishment) not to take
> advantage of this.
>
> Beyond this, Mailman doesn't provide reasonable search facilities. One can
> indeed subscribe to google groups by email and that gives you an archive.
>
> My whole company (about 175 people) moved to Google apps a few years ago
> and, although there are small annoyances (e.g., sometimes there's a delay
> in looking up email), there have never been catastrophic outages, as used
> to happen for, say, a day at a time about twice a year.
>
> I personally like the Gmail interface, but some of my colleagues access
> their email via POP or IMAP and use their preferred mail clients. (There
> are some small gotchas if you use IMAP, but I have good instructions for
> working around them.)
>
> In addition, there's a third-party service called Spanning Sync which a
> Google Apps account can use to backup all email, contact and calendar
> events. I use it on my personal account.  (I *think* it now covers email
> too.) I don't know if they have special terms for nonprofits.
>
> Google Docs is great as well.
>
> -P.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Chris Stratton <cs07024 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > * There is no convenient way to archive a google group, at all. if the
> > > group is canceled, if the service shuts down, you have to use scraped
> > > html files, if you're lucky.
> >
> > I think one can subscribe via email to a google group, so couldn't one
> > be archived by subscribing a mail address (either on one's own server,
> > or a webmail for which there is a download tool as there are for
> > most)?
> >
> > In my opinion, the mailman archive interface is primitive and inferior
> > to the google groups one for casual web reading, but conversely its
> > streamlined enough (just give me the entire month!) to be far superior
> > for in-depth reading where google's need to click every post or few
> > bogs down.  Perhaps there's a more friendly front end for mailman's
> > archives out there?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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> http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/pipermail/blabber/attachments/20111112/bf324d09/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:59:45 -0500
> From: Guan Yang <guan at yang.dk>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAEVXo7fMDiOQnL5Cw6RhtDw5QrmtUGg_7pg70iGL_ySwNXKEKg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I have generally had good experiences with both Google Groups and Google
> Apps. As for archiving, it should be easy to add mail-archive.com to the
> list so everything is archived there too.
>
> On Saturday, November 12, 2011, Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org> wrote:
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > It's time to upgrade some of our infrastructure and I'm juggling a few
> > options. Our current needs are a mailing list (like this one), a
> > website/blog, a wiki (we already have that), and email for
> > hackmanhattan.com. A few thoughts on google apps/groups vs
> > mailman/linux vps.
> >
> > * There is no convenient way to archive a google group, at all. if the
> > group is canceled, if the service shuts down, you have to use scraped
> > html files, if you're lucky. This is obviously not a problem with
> > mailman. If the mailman server goes down, all the settings, data
> > files, mailbox files, are all available in the backup.
> >
> > * In addition, there is no convenient automatic way to get an up to
> > date list of your subscribers, so, with google groups you're kind of
> > stuck if your list goes down. Again, with mailman, setting up a backup
> > list would be a matter of restoring the backup files and firing off an
> > email (an hour's work maybe?)
> >
> > * Google apps free edition has a limit of 10 users, so it's not useful
> > for vanity email addresses, though it'd be fine for a few special
> > addresses (board@, info@, etc.) Again, running our own server
> > obviously imposes no such limitation. I do think offering vanity
> > emails to all dues paying members would be a nice thing.
> >
> > * In terms of reliability, I've had many more hours of google apps/gmail
> > difficulties than I've ever had with mailman/linux hosted mail server.
> >
> > * The main benefit of google groups appears to be the web-based
> > interface for those who aren't comfortable with listservs. I can't
> > really see any other advantage. The reliability is not a strong
> > argument, nor is the security/robustness, in my opinion.
> >
> > * There is something to be said for owning your own data. First, nobody
> > can deprive you of it, or use it in any way you don't allow. Second,
> > you have access to it 24/7 right on your own system. Would we want to
> > access our mailing list, website, email, or other subsystems through
> > means we can't predict right now? We're hackers so I'd think so. Google
> > is a huge company that isn't going away any time soon, but it is also a
> > point of pride to manage my own data an IT guy/hacker.
> >
> > * Forums are great, but not for small communities, so no, I don't see
> > that as a viable alternative to a mailing list. Can you say ghost town?
> >
> > Accepting mail at hackmanhattan.com, setting up wordpress, and moving
> > the mailing list from @danielpacker.org to @hackmanhattan.com is
> > about one night's worth of work, and is not any easier for me to do on
> google
> > apps than it is on our linux VPS.
> >
> > Thoughts? In the meantime I've set up google apps free edition, but
> > it's already annoying me. I have to admit that I'm especially interested
> in
> > responses from those who've expressed interest in being co-sysadmins for
> > our linux stuff. On the other hand, if web accessibility is a big issue,
> I'm
> > interested in that too. My bias is towards full control of our data, but
> not
> > if it deprives us of needed functionality.
> >
> > DP
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:00:29 -0500
> From: Guan Yang <guan at yang.dk>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] Intertubes
> Message-ID:
>        <CAEVXo7fxqTdAzf0EQMWh_Y7ZXaVoMMbbmvnNZc1J1OYD9B_skg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Time Warner Cable claimed to offer service when I asked them. How does
> Theater Lab feed their wifi?
>
> On Saturday, November 12, 2011, Kenneth Gutierrez <kennypg at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I don't think the building is wired for cable, being non-residential.
> Bunga's Den has a satellite dish.
> > Last I heard, however, FIOS was supposed to be coming to 14th Street any
> day now.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Peter Shenkin <shenkin at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Jon Botelho <jon at jbotelho.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I know I never talk on this list, but I gotta say, Time Warner is
> terrible in that part of town. We have Clear/Sprint 4G, Verizon DSL, and
> Time Warner (50Mb) at work (20th/Broadway), and Time Warner is the only one
> that craps out on a daily basis. Checkout one of the local DSL companies
> like Voxline if you're up for trading the bandwidth for reliability and
> good latency (they offer higher bandwidth plans than Verizon).
> >>>
> >>
> >> Are you sure it's "that part of town"? My impression with cable is that
> it's building by building. Lots of people in my building (in Hell's
> Kitchen) have iffy TW service, but people in surrounding buildings have no
> problem.
> >> -P.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blabber mailing list
> >> Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> >> http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >>
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:02:24 -0500
> From: Kenneth Gutierrez <kennypg at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] Eyeo meetup at HackManhattan?
> Message-ID:
>        <CAEKHNHaj6kNp4kbVxsh-PbwjYRdV7Hk7XX58K-Mu5KKFWXYMaQ at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> If performing arts are a component, you may want to invite Theaterlab.
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> wrote:
>
> > My schedule is wacky but I'm interested in convergence-y type stuff.
> > Let us know what you're thinking in terms of schedule. We don't really
> > have a calendar yet, but we've just started getting keys to members,
> > so things should pick up.
> >
> > DP
> > @daniel_packer
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Jon Pellant <jpellant at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hey Andy... Count me in!
> > > Jon,
> > > w1jp
> > > @marmageek
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 2011, at 14:57, Andrew Dayton <andy at notioncollective.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Manhattan Hackers,
> > > I'm not sure if any of you made it to the Eyeo Festival last June, but
> > it's
> > > a (sort of) new conference focused on art, design & code (for those
> > > curious: http://eyeofestival.com/). I wasn't at all involved in
> > organizing
> > > the conference, but I've been interested in helping put together an NYC
> > Eyeo
> > > meetup ever since it happened. I briefly mentioned this a while ago
> when
> > the
> > > Manhattan hacker space idea was first introduced on NYC Resistor, but
> > > haven't been able to give much attention to the idea since then.
> > > My question is: is there any interest amongst the current members in
> > hosting
> > > such an event? I haven't had a chance to check out the space yet, but I
> > don
> > > know it's above a bar which could be helpful :). Seems like it could
> be a
> > > good way to build interest in Hack Manhattan, and to find a space to
> host
> > > this meetup.
> > > I am not currently a member of Hack Manhattan, and live/work in
> Brooklyn
> > so
> > > it's not quite a good fit for me. But I definitely would like to make
> > this
> > > meetup happen if there is interest.
> > > Thanks!
> > > Andy
> > > ---
> > > Andy Dayton
> > > http://andydayton.com
> > > @andyinabox
> > >
> > > Affiliations:
> > > @notion_nyc
> > > @poptech
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:03:17 -0500
> From: Kenneth Gutierrez <kennypg at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] Intertubes
> Message-ID:
>        <CAEKHNHZiT_xLwfyyeQU7GCaTUwfGFUk2iaTKgxSXFUqCNj+vGQ at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> DSL.
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Guan Yang <guan at yang.dk> wrote:
>
> > Time Warner Cable claimed to offer service when I asked them. How does
> > Theater Lab feed their wifi?
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, November 12, 2011, Kenneth Gutierrez <kennypg at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > I don't think the building is wired for cable, being non-residential.
> > Bunga's Den has a satellite dish.
> > > Last I heard, however, FIOS was supposed to be coming to 14th Street
> any
> > day now.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Peter Shenkin <shenkin at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Jon Botelho <jon at jbotelho.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I know I never talk on this list, but I gotta say, Time Warner is
> > terrible in that part of town. We have Clear/Sprint 4G, Verizon DSL, and
> > Time Warner (50Mb) at work (20th/Broadway), and Time Warner is the only
> one
> > that craps out on a daily basis. Checkout one of the local DSL companies
> > like Voxline if you're up for trading the bandwidth for reliability and
> > good latency (they offer higher bandwidth plans than Verizon).
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Are you sure it's "that part of town"? My impression with cable is
> that
> > it's building by building. Lots of people in my building (in Hell's
> > Kitchen) have iffy TW service, but people in surrounding buildings have
> no
> > problem.
> > >> -P.
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Blabber mailing list
> > >> Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > >> http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:21:21 -0500
> From: Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAFFbUj6hrzWqQ0HZmbmUEDRjt7rRqL+W9j=Di8TjS-vVAugGqg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Peter, good idea, however I checked into that when I was signing us up
> for google apps and couldn't sign us up. We're stuck with the free
> edition until we have a completed 501(c)(3) status, which will be
> another 3-6 months. The only difference that I think we care about
> right now is the number of allowed users. Right now we're stuck with
> 10 max, which means we can't hand out vanity email addresses for
> members (member at hackmanhattan.com). Not a huge deal.
>
> Chris - good ideas. If we stick with mailman I'd be happy to look into
> fixing up the browsing bit.
>
> Guan - good point about the archive subscription. That would take care
> of the public list.
>
> If I'm the only human being left on planet earth who still things
> running your own mail infrastructure is a good idea, I guess I can
> live with that and will acquiesce to all you cloud fanatics.
>
> DP
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Peter Shenkin <shenkin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Re. Goofle Apps:
> > "If you are a U.S. nonprofit organization of ...?under 3,000 users, you
> can
> > apply for the free Google Apps for Education through the Google for
> > Nonprofits site." ? See?http://www.google.com/nonprofits/.
> > Of course, once we reach 3000 users we would have to pay. But we can
> > reconsider at that time. ;-)
> > I think we'd be crazy (not to mention suckers for punishment) not to take
> > advantage of this.
> > Beyond this,?Mailman doesn't provide reasonable search facilities. One
> can
> > indeed subscribe to google groups by email and that gives you an archive.
> > My whole company (about 175 people) moved to Google apps a few years ago
> > and, although there are small annoyances (e.g., sometimes there's a
> delay in
> > looking up email), there have never been catastrophic outages, as used to
> > happen for, say, a day at a time about twice a year.
> > I personally like the Gmail interface, but some of my colleagues access
> > their email via POP or IMAP and use their preferred mail clients. (There
> are
> > some small gotchas if you use IMAP, but I have good instructions for
> working
> > around them.)
> > In addition, there's a third-party service called Spanning Sync which a
> > Google Apps account can use to backup all email, contact and calendar
> > events. I use it on my personal account. ?(I *think* it now covers email
> > too.) I don't know if they have special terms for nonprofits.
> > Google Docs is great as well.
> > -P.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Chris Stratton <cs07024 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > * There is no convenient way to archive a google group, at all. if the
> >> > group is canceled, if the service shuts down, you have to use scraped
> >> > html files, if you're lucky.
> >>
> >> I think one can subscribe via email to a google group, so couldn't one
> >> be archived by subscribing a mail address (either on one's own server,
> >> or a webmail for which there is a download tool as there are for
> >> most)?
> >>
> >> In my opinion, the mailman archive interface is primitive and inferior
> >> to the google groups one for casual web reading, but conversely its
> >> streamlined enough (just give me the entire month!) to be far superior
> >> for in-depth reading where google's need to click every post or few
> >> bogs down. ?Perhaps there's a more friendly front end for mailman's
> >> archives out there?
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Blabber mailing list
> >> Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> >> http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:16:01 -0500
> From: Joe Sadusk <joe at sadusk.com>
> To: Hack Manhattan! <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID: <1321150563.25497.5.camel at tick>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> For whatever its worth, I'm with you on running your own servers for the
> hell of it.  sadusk.com has been a machine in my apartment for 10 years
> now.  Originally it was because online mail accounts gave you pitiful
> storage and I could put whatever disk I wanted in the thing.  Now though
> its part stubbornness and part a desire to keep those skills from
> atrophying.
>
> So I'm on the fence with this one.  On the one hand the google groups
> web ui is slicker than anything we could get from open source tools.  On
> the other there's this nagging desire to do as much as we can ourselves,
> especially when its something as simple as running a mailing list.
>
> Thats ignoring the pretty limiting user count for google groups until
> we're 501c3.
>
> Joe
>
> On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 19:21 -0500, Daniel Packer wrote:
> > If I'm the only human being left on planet earth who still things
> > running your own mail infrastructure is a good idea, I guess I can
> > live with that and will acquiesce to all you cloud fanatics.
> >
> > DP
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:17:23 -0500
> From: Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAGGi9hcWZPP=q-61z3=ETqRH8VTvAEJHGN6Ne9BbCEyxAf6=fw at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Private organizations can't compete with the redundancy that google
> apps provides, regardless of good intentions. It almost always ends up
> being a case of "lol, who had the backups?" "what backups?"
>
> Use the right tool for the job, make hacks on the tools, or
> improvements... but I'm not going to be carving phillipshead
> screwdrivers out of sticks anytime soon.
>
> ;)
>
> - Ceren
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Joe Sadusk <joe at sadusk.com> wrote:
> > For whatever its worth, I'm with you on running your own servers for the
> > hell of it. ?sadusk.com has been a machine in my apartment for 10 years
> > now. ?Originally it was because online mail accounts gave you pitiful
> > storage and I could put whatever disk I wanted in the thing. ?Now though
> > its part stubbornness and part a desire to keep those skills from
> > atrophying.
> >
> > So I'm on the fence with this one. ?On the one hand the google groups
> > web ui is slicker than anything we could get from open source tools. ?On
> > the other there's this nagging desire to do as much as we can ourselves,
> > especially when its something as simple as running a mailing list.
> >
> > Thats ignoring the pretty limiting user count for google groups until
> > we're 501c3.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 19:21 -0500, Daniel Packer wrote:
> >> If I'm the only human being left on planet earth who still things
> >> running your own mail infrastructure is a good idea, I guess I can
> >> live with that and will acquiesce to all you cloud fanatics.
> >>
> >> DP
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:33:21 -0500
> From: Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAFFbUj7qqLCBqyKH_WfAUNNZgDKft1qcRTBhZ9d3BcgxErgKTg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> The cloud is useful for two things. One, it's useful for distributed
> storage, processing, and scaling. Two, it's useful for cost-cutting.
>
> We need neither of these things. We are exactly the type of
> organization that can be both more reliable and more effective by
> running our own infrastructure. As for reliability, I have seen my
> share of .com cloud companies wonder "who has the backup? lol?".
> Anecdotally, I've had better luck running my own services than using
> hosted services, and that's not surprising since I am an IT guy, and I
> don't need to email support (oh you wanted phone support, sorry that's
> not for free accounts) and hope for the best.
>
> Now, I'm not all about inventing the wheel that I already have, but I
> do run Linux on my laptop first, and then Mac, because I like to be
> close to the metal and be able to twiddle with the code and OS. I'm
> not against IKEA, but still have tools to make my own furniture, and
> do, because I can.
>
> Because I can. Not because I must. There's a big difference. We're an
> organization of tinkerers. Our infrastructure is one more thing to
> tinker with, but sure, let's just offload it to google, because, ya
> know, we can't compete with them. We'll just screw it up. :P
>
> DP
>
> PS. Without wooden screwdrivers how are we going to repair our wooden
> server??
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
> > Private organizations can't compete with the redundancy that google
> > apps provides, regardless of good intentions. It almost always ends up
> > being a case of "lol, who had the backups?" "what backups?"
> >
> > Use the right tool for the job, make hacks on the tools, or
> > improvements... but I'm not going to be carving phillipshead
> > screwdrivers out of sticks anytime soon.
> >
> > ;)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:46:17 -0500
> From: Jon Pellant <jpellant at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAJ7D+O+-+=K3MTJp9F8tR5poC5a1adJWEg8+k0h1k8+0_U-4oA at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I run 3 different companies / orgs on GoogleApps. In my opinion, the apps
> side and management facilities are much more mature then most other things
> out there. While yes, you have complete control over a Linux box
> running miscellaneous applications-- you have to manage them all by
> yourself. Google apps makes it easier to share management responsibilities
> with other people.
>
> Also it is rather trivial to create an archive of emails and discussion
> threads. Just create an RSS/ATOM feed for the groups discussions and
> archive that. Alternately, if you do decide to still use an external mail
> service, a google group can act as a repository and history of that as
> well.
>
> Regarding membership tracking, it is fairly easy to just click
> on members and see the entire list of members. Most of the google apps also
> are available for custom reports via their reporting apis.
>
> Groups have a number of benefits that are rather powerful to a group like
> Hackmanhattan:
>
>   - Groups are an easier way to manage the consumption and participation
>   in discussions as the use gets to choose how to interact. With a generic
>   listserver, you are all in or all out and it is difficult to manage
>   discussion threads.
>   - Sharing content within groups is trivial
>   - Groups can create shared mailboxes and help spread out management
>   chores.
>   - Groups can sponsor events and integrate them with the group calendar
>   and the individual member's calendars
>   - Scheduling is easier because people can block out their free/busy
>   times and it is easier to schedule things
>   - Payments can be integrated with events if there are fees or charges
>   for equipment
>   - Shared documents/Forms can be used to surveys, finances, equipment
>   logs, etc. which will make the task of operating he group less dependent
> on
>   individuals.
>   - Shared projects and programs can create their own shared calendars
>   - Sites enable project teams to create their own work areas.
>
> We can also get a free subscription to Google Apps for Education. See
> Google
> Apps for Non-Profits<
> http://www.google.com/support/a/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1611414&topic=29157
> >
>
>
> The only thing I do somewhat understand is that a google play is an
> all-google play and we have to weigh the pros/cons of that. My Google Apps
> organizations are grandfathered in on the 50 users. I was somewhat taken
> back on the move to 10.
>
> $0.02,
> Jon
> w1jp
> @marmageek
>
> On Nov 12, 2011, at 15:46, Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org> wrote:
>
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > It's time to upgrade some of our infrastructure and I'm juggling a few
> > options. Our current needs are a mailing list (like this one), a
> > website/blog, a wiki (we already have that), and email for
> > hackmanhattan.com. A few thoughts on google apps/groups vs
> > mailman/linux vps.
> >
> > * There is no convenient way to archive a google group, at all. if the
> > group is canceled, if the service shuts down, you have to use scraped
> > html files, if you're lucky. This is obviously not a problem with
> > mailman. If the mailman server goes down, all the settings, data
> > files, mailbox files, are all available in the backup.
> >
> > * In addition, there is no convenient automatic way to get an up to
> > date list of your subscribers, so, with google groups you're kind of
> > stuck if your list goes down. Again, with mailman, setting up a backup
> > list would be a matter of restoring the backup files and firing off an
> > email (an hour's work maybe?)
> >
> > * Google apps free edition has a limit of 10 users, so it's not useful
> > for vanity email addresses, though it'd be fine for a few special
> > addresses (board@, info@, etc.) Again, running our own server
> > obviously imposes no such limitation. I do think offering vanity
> > emails to all dues paying members would be a nice thing.
> >
> > * In terms of reliability, I've had many more hours of google apps/gmail
> > difficulties than I've ever had with mailman/linux hosted mail server.
> >
> > * The main benefit of google groups appears to be the web-based
> > interface for those who aren't comfortable with listservs. I can't
> > really see any other advantage. The reliability is not a strong
> > argument, nor is the security/robustness, in my opinion.
> >
> > * There is something to be said for owning your own data. First, nobody
> > can deprive you of it, or use it in any way you don't allow. Second,
> > you have access to it 24/7 right on your own system. Would we want to
> > access our mailing list, website, email, or other subsystems through
> > means we can't predict right now? We're hackers so I'd think so. Google
> > is a huge company that isn't going away any time soon, but it is also a
> > point of pride to manage my own data an IT guy/hacker.
> >
> > * Forums are great, but not for small communities, so no, I don't see
> > that as a viable alternative to a mailing list. Can you say ghost town?
> >
> > Accepting mail at hackmanhattan.com, setting up wordpress, and moving
> > the mailing list from @danielpacker.org to @hackmanhattan.com is
> > about one night's worth of work, and is not any easier for me to do on
> google
> > apps than it is on our linux VPS.
> >
> > Thoughts? In the meantime I've set up google apps free edition, but
> > it's already annoying me. I have to admit that I'm especially interested
> in
> > responses from those who've expressed interest in being co-sysadmins for
> > our linux stuff. On the other hand, if web accessibility is a big issue,
> I'm
> > interested in that too. My bias is towards full control of our data, but
> not
> > if it deprives us of needed functionality.
> >
> > DP
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:24:36 -0500
> From: Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAFFbUj5+1VqNcv=pO7CBPuOD=taFBo=N65Q4i=wEKpukk3dE2w at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Jon,
>
> Thanks for the input. My experiences with google apps over the years
> have been great. I've got no problem with their service -- it's quite
> nice. My issue is, if anything, a philosophical one. It's about why
> people build their own cars, build their own houses, learn how to cook
> a fancy meal. You do it because you can, not because you're
> particularly good at it, or the cheapest in town, or the most
> convenient. It's about craftsmanship. I'm also ambivalent about giving
> all of my data independence away, silly as that may seem these days.
> If infrastructure is an area where others don't feel we benefit from
> ownership of the process, that's OK. I'm not going to be convinced it
> isn't worth it for a hackerspace to be self-hosting, but I am willing
> to give the people what they want.
>
> We (Hack Manhattan) are currently running on google apps free edition.
> We don't yet qualify for the education edition. We're a NY state
> nonprofit corporation, but the eligibility requirements for google
> apps for nonprofits is:
>
> "US Organizations must have current 501(c)(3) status, as assigned by
> the Internal Revenue Service, to be considered for the Google for
> Nonprofits program. If you do not have a valid 501(c)(3) status then
> you are not eligible for this program."
>
> In 3-6 months we can upgrade to nonprofit edition, once our 501(c)(3)
> application is received and approved. We'll be getting that underway
> soon now that our nonprofit incorporation, lease, and bank account are
> settled. I'll soon start to migrate folks to a google group. We won't
> be able to give every member a login, unfortunately, but we will be
> able to take advantage of a few crucial email addresses:
>
> * board at hackmanhattan.com (goes to board members. currently going to
> our three interim board members as specified by our articles of
> incorporation -- myself, Guan, and Rendall)
> * info at hackmanhattan.com (a separate group email internally, but for
> now goes to the board. for general inquiries)
>
> DP
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Jon Pellant <jpellant at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I run 3 different companies / orgs on GoogleApps. In my opinion, the apps
> > side and management facilities are much more mature then most other
> things
> > out there. While yes, you have complete control over a Linux box
> > running?miscellaneous applications-- you have to manage them all by
> > yourself. Google apps makes it easier to share management
> responsibilities
> > with other people.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:53:41 -0500
> From: Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CAFFbUj4FpBK1NZBgnkCWedSO-uETuWKJrPm8VL+d5Pt=Z823yg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> All of the most competent sysadmin folks I know got that way by
> running their own services. It's a great educational opportunity. Is
> it a great way to run a business with a bottom line? Not really, no.
> Is it a great way to be a hacker? Absolutely.
>
> Thanks for reminding me I'm not the only crazy. :D
>
> DP
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Joe Sadusk <joe at sadusk.com> wrote:
> > For whatever its worth, I'm with you on running your own servers for the
> > hell of it. ?sadusk.com has been a machine in my apartment for 10 years
> > now. ?Originally it was because online mail accounts gave you pitiful
> > storage and I could put whatever disk I wanted in the thing. ?Now though
> > its part stubbornness and part a desire to keep those skills from
> > atrophying.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:57:30 -0500
> From: Justin Levinson <localtalent at gmail.com>
> To: "Hack Manhattan!" <blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org>
> Subject: Re: [Blabber] infrastructure choices
> Message-ID:
>        <CANd1rVbJy_D2mLyPUKjfcrAF0XN3GfJ06r8aEBoFkO51cQdLZg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I think you hit on the perfect point in that last message - it's a matter
> of deciding what the goal is.  If the goal is to build better hackers, we
> should DIY.  If the goal is to have plug-and-play, offload it.  We run our
> business on Google Apps, but we need to focus on stuff that isn't
> infrastructure.
>
> And couldn't we split the difference by getting a VPS somewhere?  My home
> Internet is spotty at best, uptime is probably 80% - not what I want to be
> running a mail server/IRC server on.  We could get a VPS for $20-30/mo,
> then they worry about uptime and hardware failures but we still get to
> administer it ourselves and everyone learns to hack.
>
> But when it comes down to it, I'm reasonably agnostic about how we do this.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:53 AM, Daniel Packer <dp at danielpacker.org>
> wrote:
>
> > All of the most competent sysadmin folks I know got that way by
> > running their own services. It's a great educational opportunity. Is
> > it a great way to run a business with a bottom line? Not really, no.
> > Is it a great way to be a hacker? Absolutely.
> >
> > Thanks for reminding me I'm not the only crazy. :D
> >
> > DP
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Joe Sadusk <joe at sadusk.com> wrote:
> > > For whatever its worth, I'm with you on running your own servers for
> the
> > > hell of it.  sadusk.com has been a machine in my apartment for 10
> years
> > > now.  Originally it was because online mail accounts gave you pitiful
> > > storage and I could put whatever disk I wanted in the thing.  Now
> though
> > > its part stubbornness and part a desire to keep those skills from
> > > atrophying.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Blabber mailing list
> > Blabber at hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org
> > http://hackmanhattan.danielpacker.org/listinfo/blabber
> >
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> End of Blabber Digest, Vol 4, Issue 12
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